Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: I spent seven years in the anatomy lab.
You know, I've been teaching at the chiropractic college. I read the chiropractic research on a regular basis. I'm a firm believer at this point that we got to start telling people what chiropractic is good for. Otherwise, they're going to try to dictate the narrative to us because either other people are going to tell us what we're good for, or we have the opportunity to go in there and tell them what we're good for.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Welcome to Chirocast, the podcast that connects chiropractic professionals with super stories, insights and strategies to grow a thriving practice. Brought to you by ChiroTouch. I'm Danielle Javines.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: And I'm Dr. Stephanie Brown. Today we're diving into a topic that's often talked about but rarely broken down step by step, and that's how to develop strong professional relationships outside your practice. Whether it's working with care providers, attorneys, or other industry partners, those connections can fuel referrals, improve patient care, and even open doors for advocacy.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: And who better to join us today than Dr. Phil Deter, President of Cal Cairo, adjunct professor at Life West Chiropractic College Practice, owner and founder of blue chip consulting firm, which is designed to help new practitioners with job opportunities, and of course, a longtime advocate for professional collaboration within and beyond chiropractic. Dr. Dieter, welcome to Chirocast.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Thank you guys so much for having me. I appreciate it.
[00:01:26] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. So why don't we start with your story?
What sparked your passion for building professional relationships in and around chiropractic?
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Well, I've always been a very collaborative person by nature, you know, and so I think it started originally when I was looking to, you know, grow my practice, develop my practice, and started looking at sources of referral, especially, like in the personal injury world.
I was noticing a lot of times patients were needing maybe additional services or, you know, people taught me in the beginning of managing personal injury cases that it's always good to share the responsibility, right? And at least get people evaluated, even though we're maintaining chiropractic as the focus of their treatment and that kind of thing. So in an effort to do so, I was looking for people that would either take patients on a lean or that type of thing. And so I really just started reaching out to providers that I would hear the names of that my patients might be telling me of and really just ask them, you know, are they open to taking liens? That was definitely a good question. I think in the Beginning in terms of are you open to taking liens?
[00:02:32] Speaker D: Right.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Because now they saw that I was about doing business together, they saw that I was about collaborating together. And so that opened the door for a lot of lunches, dinners, just opportunities to network myself within the medical community and that type of thing.
And then, you know, I feel like a lot of it comes back to. And I always tell my students and new graduates this, you know, make sure you're doing your homework. Right. We're giving you homework assignments at school for a reason. Right? Because we want you to learn the material, we want you to own the material. So that when you go into environments, professional environments, collaborative environments, collegial experiences, you have the lexicon, you have the language to be able to talk, to talk the same language, you know, with a medical provider and in many cases even an attorney when it comes to attorneys, you know, specifically, I really started looking for people that wanted to be collaborative and they were taking care of people first and not necessarily just their case.
[00:03:27] Speaker D: Right.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: You know, we'd get referrals from attorneys or we get calls from attorneys all the time. And in many cases, I will try to vet those attorneys and or again, go out to lunch, go out to dinner, whatever it might be with them, just to get a sense of who they are, how are they handling cases, you know, some of the things they might doing, like are they a pro rata firm, something along those lines that become problematic, you know, down the road. And I've learned a lot of it the hard way, but just really having no fear to try to go into those environments and stand, you know, represent myself, you know, stand, tell them what I stand for, for a chiropractic perspective and just share with them a little bit more about who I am.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: I have a question.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:04:08] Speaker B: So I, I love the idea of. It sounds like you were very boots on the ground, knocking on doors, introducing yourself and setting up lunches and, and whatnot. Did you find that you had to educate many of the attorneys or law offices on chiropractic before taking it to the next level, or did majority of them understand chiropractic as a whole?
[00:04:31] Speaker A: No, no, definitely people don'.
Chiropractic nor do they even want to in many cases, you know, but I got a great piece of advice many years ago that it's not about trying to educate people about what chiropractic is completely, you know, as to the extent that I know it or even to make them a chiropractic advocate, but to just go into that relationship and even though they may not know anything about it. At least they have a name and a face that in the event that maybe they come to a dead end in the care plan or they're not really sure where else to send their patient or their client or whatever it might be, they have a name and a face that they could refer back to and say, hey, you know, I don't know much about chiropractic, but that Dr. Phil guy was okay, I would see him if I, you know, was in your shoes kind of thing. So it was more about building the rapport, establishing the relationship, showing them that I knew what I was talking about from my perspective with respect to chiropractic. Not trying to overstate my education or my understanding of, like, what they do.
Although I do highly recommend that, you know, understanding what it's like in the medical world to refer people for injections, physical therapy, pain medications, just having that understanding of, like, what are these things good for? Why would they refer for this and not that? What's the triage? You know, the, the method of triage that they're implementing, or why would they recommend one thing versus another or why does this procedure work? Well, for this particular condition, those kind of things became very helpful. And for me, you know, I, you know, I naturally love learning, right? And I, I love understanding more. I'm a fact finder by nature. And so that was easy for me. Now, not everybody's like that, right? And I have also then had to maintain that level of faith and confidence in what we do from a chiropractic perspective, to be able to go into those worlds and still maintain, you know, my foundation, my philosophy of chiropractic, but then still be able to understand what people are doing in that medical world really to take care of people the best way we can take care of them. And as long as we put the people first and we remember that it's about taking care of the people, I don't think we go wrong. And I think that's what I've been able to show people.
And when things came up regarding chiropractic and, you know, what we do and why we do it, well, then I would jump at the opportunity to say, well, you know, here's what we do as chiropractors, right? And, you know, being an adjunct professor at Life west was super helpful for me. I taught in the anatomy program originally, and if anybody out there doesn't feel like they have a good handle on their anatomy, I encourage you, go back to the anatomy books, understand origins, insertions, Innovations, mechanisms of action, all of those kind of things. Because when I got in those environments and I got put to the test, I could fall back on that level of knowledge because people don't study anatomy and biomechanics like we study as chiropractors. And so I think that's one of our distinct advantages. Obviously, I think the philosophy of chiropractic is our distinct advantage, but being able to understand anatomy and biomechanics the way that we do from the chiropractic perspective, that really starts to differentiate us in that medical world and I think add a lot of credibility to what I was doing.
[00:07:51] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. Like, you're kind of talking their language a little bit, and then they know that you know what you're talking about.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: One thing I think I heard you say, you didn't say this directly, but it seemed to be a theme, is that when you have these conversations with other professionals, you, I mean, you're telling them about yourself and what you do or what have you, but you're also asking them what they do. And I feel like when a lot of people enter, like, networking situations, they go into it like you definitely want to have your own thing ready about what you're going to say about yourself. But I think people forget sometimes that, like, start with them, like, ask them, ask what they do, ask what their ideal patient or client or whatever situation might be, because then you get them going and then you start to see, like, okay, well, these are the kind of referrals that are going to be, like, helpful for that person, because if you start sending business to someone's direction, but it's not the kind of thing they can or want to handle, like, that's not going to result in something fruitful.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Absolutely. And even in those situations where you might send somebody, them to them, that's not a good fit. And, you know, I, I, I have done that. And so in those cases, you know, it's just a matter of, okay, well, let's refine, you know, our rapport.
[00:09:01] Speaker D: Right.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: And I, like you said, I think it's all about the collaboration.
[00:09:05] Speaker D: Right.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: How much can you give before you receive kind of thing? And so I've never gone wrong trying to figure out what's important to other people and then trying to figure out how I could help them get what they want.
[00:09:15] Speaker D: Right.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: And I think that even when I made those initial phone calls, you know, when I was first trying to either get help from my patients or find attorneys that were good to work with, I would lead with you Know, you know, do you guys. Do you work cooperatively with chiropractic offices, or are you okay with chiropractors sending referrals your way? When you ask somebody, if you're willing to. To take, you know, to receive business.
[00:09:40] Speaker C: Do you want me to give you money?
[00:09:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't want to say that. Dr. Martin, thank you for saying that.
[00:09:45] Speaker C: Well, to a certain extent, that's what it ends up happening. But like you said, it's about the patient. But it's also. We all have to keep our lights on.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I give you money. Oh, sure.
[00:09:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
What do you. This is like a twofold question, but I'm super curious. Um, so what do you do? Like, you just call up a lawyer's office and say, hey, like you just said, are you guys open to working with chiropractors? Um, do you have to get past the gatekeeper? Do you have any tips about that? Or, like, how. How do you make it turn into something beyond just like, you know, a. Something as passive as I'm just going to send an email because I'm introverted to. I'm walking in their office and not leaving until they let me talk to the owner. You know what I mean?
[00:10:30] Speaker A: You know, I always try to get myself out there in the community, especially when I was new at this, right? And so I was going to chamber of commerce events, I was, you know, going to other business. I would look for business events, right. And find out where attorneys were going to be. Especially like in the personal injury world. Personally injury attorneys are used to networking themselves and they're looking for ways to collaborate with people, right? They're usually part of these kind of groups and that.
Those environments, Right? And so when you're in those environments, everybody's looking for business, just like they are in a medical. In that medical setting that we were just describing.
[00:11:03] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: And so I always, again, go into it, what can I do for them? Can I send you business? Are you looking for people to send you business? Right. And who's going to say no?
[00:11:12] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: But I always make it about the relationship.
[00:11:15] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: I think it's important not to run down the mountain too fast with somebody and basically set it up, you know, hey, are you interested in going for coffee or lunch or those kind of things?
[00:11:25] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: It's that second date phenomenon. Like, hey, let's. It's nice to meet you. I'm aware of who you are and what your services are. Would you want to go on a second interaction kind of thing?
[00:11:34] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: And then that's where we start building rapport and I start to get a feel for.
Do they. Are they collaborative? Are they accepting cases, you know, in an ethical manner?
[00:11:43] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: And are they taking care of people in an ethical way?
[00:11:46] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: And so those are some of the things that I would originally initially ask. And so then the relationship starts to develop as time went on and I became, you know, people became more aware of my services.
Then I would have people reaching out to me, saying, hey, do you guys want cases? But I still would do the same thing because I want to vet the relationship. Right. I don't want to just get into a relationship with anybody and everybody that wants to get into a relationship with me.
[00:12:12] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah. That was a super important piece of the puzzle. I learned the hard way, you know, obviously, by getting taken advantage of. But hopefully, you know, people that are listening, if you are interested in this, make sure like. Like I said, approach it in that manner. Where, hey, are you looking for business?
Let's, you know, find out more about each other. Come to my office or can I go to your clinic? Even with medical practitioners now, I really love to go see their facility.
[00:12:39] Speaker D: Right.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: I want to know what kind of facility am I sending my people to? Because, you know, I. I take a personal interest in the people that I'm caring for, whether they're here for personal injury work or whether they're just here for wellness care. I want to make sure that I'm doing right by that person. And so at the end of the day, I look forward to those opportunities to go see facilities like that. And that's been some of the coolest ways to develop the relationship and sort of take it to the next level.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: It revolves around reputation as well. Your reputation is on the line, Their reputation is on the line. They. The common denominator is taking care of the patient, the client, and making sure they have the best experience.
So I know you mentioned learning the hard way and getting taken advantage of. It's. It's a hard experience to go through, but it's necessary so that you know how to navigate it moving forward.
And I imagine in that space, it. You get into loyalty a little bit. How do you navigate managing multiple relationships and perhaps in some cases, competition in the industry with medical partners or attorneys?
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Well, I think proximity plays a role in some of it.
[00:13:49] Speaker D: Right.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: And so I try to have, you know, people like in San Jose, we have large area. Right. And so sending people to certain locations that. Where they might live or what's easy for them, even with, like, MRI facilities, same kind of Concept.
[00:14:03] Speaker D: Right.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: So proximity plays a role. And then certainly, you know, I, the people that are treating me fairly and that are working collaboratively, I'm going to send those people, you know, work collaborative with those people kind of thing.
Yeah, well, I definitely don't enter into exclusivity. You know, I don't think everybody's right for every person. I always say different people respond differently to different chiropractors. Different techniques, different people, different offices.
[00:14:28] Speaker D: Right.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: And it's really incumbent upon me to figure out what they're going to respond best to.
[00:14:32] Speaker D: Right.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: And who they're going to work best with. And I'm not even afraid to refer to other chiropractors. You know, I think that's one of the biggest challenges we have as a profession in terms of working collaboratively in that respect. You know, somebody is a pediatric specialist or somebody does, you know, do a lot of sports related work or whatever it might be if they have some advanced education in those areas. Sending them even like the neurology diplomats.
[00:14:57] Speaker D: Right.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: I will send people the neurology diplomats all the time for cases that, you know, are not resolving regarding dizziness or maybe eye movement problems or just things that are kind of lingering in, in that nature.
But the thing that I was gonna talk about was with regards to, you know, the exclusivity and that kind of thing is that I think again, as long as you're keeping that the patient's best interest in, in mind regarding that, like what would you want to want done to your own family members? Right. Or how would you want it handled in your. If you were the person.
[00:15:32] Speaker D: Right.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Then I don't think you can go wrong kind of thing.
[00:15:35] Speaker C: So can you think of any, like, mistakes you've heard people made or mistakes you've made yourself? Maybe like things you would not recommend doing when it comes to meeting, or whether it's when you're trying to build that relationship or even after it's been established for a while, like things you should not do.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Sure.
You know, I, in, in doing this kind of work and in working collaboratively with people, you do get kind of almost like full of yourself or you're like proud of yourself. Like, oh, I'm pretty good at this. Like these, all these medical doctors are really liking me and all these attorneys are really liking me and I must be doing something right. And you are to a certain extent.
[00:16:12] Speaker D: Right.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: But it's that old adage of once you get too proud of yourself or if you have too much hubris, then the universe kind of lets you know, or puts you back in your place kind of thing.
[00:16:21] Speaker D: Right.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: And so in taking on some of those relationships that I may, I didn't vet as well.
[00:16:27] Speaker D: Right, right.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, I'm on the map now. Everybody wants to send people to me. Especially like when I got I in the Spanish speaking environment, you know, I, I speak fairly good Spanish. And so I have Spanish speaking employees at my front desk and I have doctors in my clinic that speak Spanish. And so we really got on the radar for being able to care for Spanish speaking patients and that kind of thing. And that was a time where we were getting a ton of attorneys reaching out. We really got on the map. Oh, these guys take Spanish speaking patients.
[00:16:58] Speaker D: Right.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: And take. Not, not going through that process that I was talking about before where I vetted them correctly and built a relationship and it was a solid foundation because in those cases, you know, I, I ran into problems where the case got dropped or the client fired the attorney or something along those lines. And so, you know, just getting away from my, my foundation and my principles was the mistake.
[00:17:27] Speaker D: Right.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: And so in, in that scenario, you know, make sure you, you get back to the basics.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Stay true to yourself.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Stay true to yourself, and don't get too proud of yourself. I think that's, you know, when you think you got it figured out, that's when you'll learn. You don't.
[00:17:45] Speaker C: That's really funny. That's the same with just like, you know, your favorite wellness patient that comes in all the time and then some. Suddenly you realize that you haven't seen them in a while and you're like, wait, where did Betty go? And then you gotta call Betty.
What about working with medical doctors like, outside of like PI environment? Like my area, PI is not big at all because of our state laws and whatnot. And so like just having a relationship with medical professionals, I feel like it's easier to build relationships with other non traditional healthcare providers, if you want to call them that, because we're all trying to like, have campfires and, you know, sing songs around it. But when it comes to like, reaching out to those medical people and like just getting relationships and referrals with them, I mean, what advice do you have about that?
[00:18:36] Speaker A: I mean, I always approach it much the same way, you know, and I, and I meet a lot of these people in these networking environments. But I'd say at this point in time, you know, people are reaching out to me because they're seeing, okay, these, these, your, my clinics are, you know, seeing a certain Number of people. And, you know, we are working collaboratively with other professionals and that kind of thing. And I approach that much the same way. You know, I think at the end of the day, what, again, I'll go back to different people respond differently to different things and different people.
[00:19:10] Speaker D: Right.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: And I want to be the person that can help coordinate that, quarterback that, and get them whatever it is that they think they need or that we might think that they need kind of thing.
It's an odd phenomenon, you know, in. In the chiropractic profession, like you said, the chiropractic Kumbaya. The chiropractic Kool Aid. Right.
You know, when you. When you can kind of tap into that person's innate, you know, it's like all of a sudden you open that trap door to healing. And so in some cases, I've even noticed that, you know, sending them to. Let's say I have massage therapy in my office or one of a massage therapy practitioner, or maybe even working collaborative, like with a pelvic floor specialist. Pelvic floor physical therapy is a very popular thing in this community. Now, I do work with a lot of OB GYNs, and that's. That's a perfect example of outside of the PI world, you know, going into that ob GYN community. They are. So. They are probably one of the most knowledgeable medical professionals about chiropractic care because they've already come to the conclusion that, okay, I can't send them for pain management or something along those lines. And they have seen the value in sending their patients to chiropractors to help them navigate, you know, that second, third trimester, all of those kind of things.
And so in those environments, you know, I think we've been. I've been able to work very collaboratively. And again, I just go back into their offices. I want to see what services they're providing.
And although many obgyns are into ancillary services now, so understanding what those just being, you know, really interested in that. And that's one of the things that I go. Go back to or I've heard talked about all the times in chiropractic circles is be more interested than interesting, right? I think Dave Meltzer. Dave Meltzer is the guy who always says that. But so I always try to be interested in what. What people are doing.
[00:21:06] Speaker D: Right.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: And how what I do fits into that and collaborates with that. Because above all, I want to preserve the relationship. I want to maintain the relationship, because even if I'm not the solution for them in in that moment, there's other people that I can serve and that I can take care of, that they might know, or maybe there's even other things that I can do for them, you know, outside of whatever it is the complaint that they came in with. And then in my heart of hearts, you know, I truly believe that people need to get checked and adjusted on a regular basis. Right. Even they need to get checked, even if they don't need to get adjusted necessarily on a regular basis because they don't know what the implication, the far reaching implications of subluxation are or in having problems related to the spine, if you want to call it mechanical dysfunction, lack of movement, whatever it is. But if we can agree that the adjustment is an important thing that helps them restore function, optimize wellness and get back to the things that they want to do, that's really what it's all about.
[00:22:05] Speaker D: Right.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: I want to be that person for them and then help them navigate and manage all of those other things that are going on in their life.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:14] Speaker C: There's a little off topic, but let's say you have a PI patient. Do you, you know, when they're coming into the office, are you guys teaching them about chiropractic? Are you hoping they return as maybe a regular patient once their case is resolved, assuming it's gets resolved someday or like what does that look like?
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I, you know, I think people that are, are educated as you treat them.
[00:22:34] Speaker D: Right.
[00:22:34] Speaker A: I certainly. We have all of our systems and our touch points in the process in terms of introducing to them what we do, why we do it, depending on where they're at.
[00:22:43] Speaker D: Right.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: I always try to determine where people at in our office. We do pre qualification calls or telehealth calls, whatever you want to call them. Right. Because I want to get a sense of who is this person, what experience do they have with chiropractic, what's going on with them to a certain extent. But then I also want to let them know, hey, here's how we do things in our office. You know, the majority of people are going to come in, they're going to get an examination, they may get an X ray, they're going to get some version of a treatment plan over a short period of time and we're going to reevaluate them after that short period of time and then we're going to determine what their needs are going forward.
[00:23:15] Speaker D: Right.
[00:23:15] Speaker A: And if you get to a point where I think there's an important distinction that has to be made, especially in, you know, my clinic, because we do accept insurance. And so we, we live in that medical necessity world, but we also live in that chiropractic necessity world. And that's the balance that we all struggle to maintain sort of in an insurance based practice. Right.
But at that touch point, then it becomes, okay, hey, you're, you're seeing some improvement now. Okay, what's your medical chiropractic, your medical necessity need versus your chiropractic necessity need. And when you get to that point, when their care, let's say quote unquote, isn't any, isn't medically necessary anymore, whether that's in three months and four months or maybe even in one month, let's say their, their care isn't medically necessary at that point, then it becomes a matter of, well, is your care chiropractically necessary?
[00:24:04] Speaker D: Right.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: And that's the opportunity that you can invite people into regular care or wellness care or maintenance care.
And in many cases, I always try to make sure I'm managing a person visit to visit and not get ahead of myself. Right. And so I'm trying to use my table talk and I'm trying to use language in our interactions that are trying to feel out like, where are they in their understanding of chiropractic and in their worldview really? Because it's very hard to change people's worldview in one visit.
[00:24:35] Speaker D: Right.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Or in one report of findings. And really, people's world's world views get changed over time.
[00:24:42] Speaker D: Right.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: And so when they're ready for that next level of education and interaction, I'll invite them into it. Well, have you thought about, you know, what we're doing from a chiropractic perspective and how that affects your physiology.
[00:24:55] Speaker D: Right.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: And that's where I go back to the homework.
[00:24:57] Speaker D: Right.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: And make sure you do your homework. Make sure you're reading the research, make sure you're following all of the people out there that are doing the stuff in the chiropractic field that is really substantiating what we do to a great extent. I love Heidi Havoc's work about, you know, how the frontal lobe of the brain lights up when people get adjusted.
Scott Rose has done work on CSF flow around the brain. If you haven't seen any of that research with respect to how the chiropractic adjustment helps people beyond pain relief, I highly recommend that you get yourself, you know, aware of that information because to me, those are the far reaching implications of using chiropractic care as part of your lifestyle beyond pain relief.
[00:25:39] Speaker D: Right.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Like do you want your brain to function better or do you want your brain to be healthier? I mean, it's your call. Let me know. I'll be here either way.
[00:25:46] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So say you have a patient that, that was referred to by another healthcare provider. Do you send like updates to them about how that person's doing? Do you send like an initial report or like how frequently would you contact them back about that patient?
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Well, I'll definitely send them a report like the initial visit, basically. And this is where Chirotouch comes in so handy right here. Because I think the way that you, the way that we're able to craft somewhat like a narrative report in a, in a SOAP note is more than sufficient for like a first visit report, you know, the way that I do it. And you know, I've been able to customize my macros and use some of the embedded macros that, gosh, we've been, I've been a car touch client now for well over 15 years or so and the help that I got initially was setting up my macros in that way. I think that's where a lot of people need some additional training and help because they can basically craft a narrative, what would be considered a narrative report from that initial visit. If you're doing all of your orthopedic exams, you've done your range of motion, you've talked about what you're going to do for the patient and the plan and that kind of thing. So sending that off to somebody is very simple and it helps to build that rapport and that, you know, credibility that we were talking about. Like, okay, these guys are, they are actually taking notes. Okay, go, go figure.
[00:27:06] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. Oh, they're taking notes. It's a good thing. Yeah, I feel like it helps show your credibility.
So when I refer patients out, usually to neurologists or neurosurgeon, I'll get reports back. And just over time I've sort of modified my own narrative and my macros to. I don't want to say we learned any. It's not that we learned something wrong. I've just noticed trends and how the medical providers do their documentation and I've just updated my macro sometimes to match what I see them doing. Like, I feel like I need to put like, I need to go way over the top. This is like, needs to be the longest note ever. Right. But they're not going to read a five page narrative. They're probably going to the last page to see like, like the end. But yeah, just like Making it to the point and thorough, but to the point. And just modifying some of my wording is something I've done over the years that I think it just adds to your credibility and they understand that, like, okay, we are speaking the same language and this person is competent. And like you said, oh, they're taking notes. It's a good thing.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: Yeah, no, you hit the nail on.
[00:28:08] Speaker D: The head right there.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: And I think, because I do the same thing with their reports, right? I'm like, okay, well, what's this person going to do for them?
[00:28:14] Speaker D: Right?
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Like, all this other stuff. Great, you know, but, okay, here's. Here's what you're going to do. Okay, so we'll do that and then, you know, see how that works. And then I'll send you back the patient once we've gone through that process. Right. And I think that's another piece of the puzzle, I think that I've learned in developing these relationships is that do that portion, right? You're. You're working in that medical necessity environment, and then send the person back to the other medical provider. That doesn't mean you can't invite them in for what's chiropractically necessary and for regular care and to maintain the benefits of the adjustments they've received.
That just means that you're going to have two paths that go on simultaneously.
[00:28:54] Speaker C: Right, exactly.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: And that's where the education piece, like you said, comes in. But it's nuanced in the sense that you got to know how to introduce it.
[00:29:02] Speaker D: Right.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: And I think that's one of the things I don't know. You know, in chiropractic college, you get told all. You got to tell the story, right? And it is important to tell the story. But I think telling the story in the first visit or the second visit or over the course of 12 visits, you know, can be equally as helpful and important.
[00:29:19] Speaker C: It has to be mentally digestible on the report front. And working with other providers, I've also, you know, I've had people where I wasn't able to help them. It happens. And, you know, in those situations that I think of, you know, they went and had surgery. But I'll tell you, I mean, a couple things, two things stand out. Specifically. I had a guy once show up right before Christmas with his wife, and they had a car, a Christmas card, and a. Like a fruit basket for me. And, you know, I knew that he had had surgery. I had touched base with them. I knew he was doing good. I got the report from the neurosurgeon but they literally came into the office to say thank you. And it's just funny because, like, I didn't do the surgery. Like, I'm the one that couldn't help, but they saw me as the person who got them to where they needed to be.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:30:07] Speaker C: And so for them, they were just still, like, really thankful about that. So, so much so to the point they went out of their way to get me, like, you know, like a little Christmas thing or whatever.
And I've had other people who had surgery and were helped tremendously by it. And then a couple years later, maybe something happens and they come back in and they return to be a patient. So I think there's also people who are afraid to refer to other providers because it makes them think like, a, I failed, which is not true, and B, I'm losing a patient because they're not going to come back. And that's also not always the case either. So if you can just do a good job, do good and be good, people will return to you, you know, when the time's right, because you're going to be front of mind because you were intelligent, you did a good job, and even if you weren't the one that ultimately fixed the issue, you still helped them get to the place or the person where it could get fixed. So.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: I'm glad you mentioned that. I was, as you were talking Dr. Phil about OBGYN, creating those relationships, I. I imagine in the industry you're a new grad or you're a new business owner. It's intimidating. And there may be some fear behind putting yourself out there and creating those relationships, but it made me think about my recent interaction having my third baby.
You would be surprised at how meaningful those relationships are. Like, for example, I have a midwife, and when we were in conversation, she assumed I was under chiropractic care. I didn't offer that information.
We were kind of talking about the. The pelvic pain, you know, that comes along with babies and whatnot. And she said, well, what did your chiropractor say? What do they have you doing? And it. It took me off guard. I was like, well, let's talk through that. But they. She assumed I was, one, under, you know, chiropractic care, frequent chiropractic care, and two, that I would have already had the tools necessary to overcome some of these challenges. And it. When you were talking about it, I was like, I hope that other listeners, they're hearing that, how meaningful relationships are. But put yourself out there. You'd be surprised at how open other providers are to creating those relationships because I know one of the chiropractors in my time that I was seeing, she said we have to play well in the sandbox together.
We, as a chiropractor, we're not always going to have all the solutions all the time. So having those resources to. And an ability to know, hey, I've gotten you to, you know, the end of where I can get you. Let me get you to the next step and then I'll see you back whenever.
So not being afraid to step out there, but I wanted to ask, how do you get over those fears of maybe rejection that could happen or just getting started and putting yourself out there? It's intimidating, sure.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: And as I was sitting here thinking about it too, I think you had asked me earlier about one of the mistakes maybe I made.
You know, if I had to do it over again, if I, especially if I liked working with new and expectant mothers or our babies and that kind of thing, I would certainly get my deliverables together and just go start doing some cold calling on OB GYNs. I mean, you've got more time than patients in the beginning of practice. Like 20. I'm thinking about 20 years ago, right. If I had built a referral pad at that time, which I have now, and I had, I have a pelvic floor rehabilitation presentation that I put together and I have a, or how chiropractic relates to that. And I have a flyer that I basically have created, much like you said, Dr. Stephanie, about. Here's what the MDs are doing from a business development perspective. I just watched that about all the server. Here's, here's my flyer about all the services. And I would go to, I would look up on Google every OB GYN within, you know, 15 miles of me, and I would go knock on each one of their doors and, you know, show up just like the other healthcare providers do or business development people or the medical device people do with a box of crumble cookies? And I would say, I'm Dr. Phil, I'm new to the area, love working with new and expecting mothers. Would you mind if I left you my information in my referral pad? You're going to get a lot more yeses than nos, like you said, because different era, better understanding.
[00:34:27] Speaker C: Who says no to cookies?
[00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
And, and then certainly, you know, you have the opportunity to ask that front desk, hey, you, is doctor, you know, Smith or Dr. Jones available to do lunch or coffee or are they willing to talk with me more about who I am, what I do and who I serve.
[00:34:47] Speaker D: Right.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: It's a simple question. It's yes or no. It's not that, I guess, daunting, you know, in my mind now, but if you needed a script to get, you know, at this point to kind of, like you said, get past that, that fear, that's the script. You know, if you want me, you want to call me, I'll be happy to rehearse it with you. Or you can just watch this recording over, you know, would you be willing, or is your doctor willing to sit down for coffee, lunch, you know, or even have me back just to look at, understand more about your practice so that we can start to build that relationship.
[00:35:20] Speaker D: Right?
[00:35:20] Speaker A: And so I think, you know, to really get back to your question, for me, I'm a big, you know, I learned a long time ago from Dennis Perman and Bob Hoffman, it's be, do, have, right? And you got to be the person to do the things, to have the things right. And so it goes back to things like visualization, affirmations, goal setting, set it getting your mind right with podcasts, reading, listening to things, you know, maybe audio books that help build you up in strong and noble thought in that regard. So that when you go into those environments, you know your own self worth, right? Because we're all going to go, we're all going to have highs and lows, we're going to go through trials and tribulations and life happens while we build our practice, right? So you've got to have a system in place. I use a tool called the Winner's Journal from Pam Carl's that I have stood, you know, stood the test of time over the last 15 years to help me set the tone for each and every day. And I can literally look back on the things that I have in my life now that I wrote down 15 years ago in those winners journals. Because it wasn't about just wishing for it and writing it down. It was about taking the steps and doing the things that I needed to get myself in a position to make them happen.
[00:36:32] Speaker D: Right.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: And so I'm a huge advocate of doing those type of things so that you don't get beat down by the world. You don't get, you know, because you're going to come across. I've been in situations now, you know, as the president of Cal Cairo, I'm a political advocacy kind of. That's kind of where I've built my, my, myself up, my reputation, right. Because I guess I've Been able to get beat up enough in those other environments that now I can go into these legislative arenas and whether or not somebody likes me or doesn't like me or wants to tell me what chiropractic is good for or believes in chiropractic or doesn't believe in chiropractic, I can stand up to that because I don't base my self worth on their opinion.
[00:37:13] Speaker D: Right.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: Or on the good opinion of other people because I've done my homework. I've. I spent seven years in the anatomy lab.
You know, I've been teaching at the chiropractic college. I read the chiropractic research on a regular basis. So if you want to try to tell me what chiropractic is good for, we're going to have a long probably discussion that maybe has some animosity to it because I'm a firm believer at this point that we got to start telling people what chiropractic is good for, otherwise they're going to try to dictate the narrative to us.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:37:42] Speaker C: Yeah. So on that. No, I mean, so you've been in the position to see like what the power of advocacy and those kinds of relationships can impact policy and the effect that's going to have like statewide on practice and whatnot, other professionals.
So can you talk to us a little bit about that, like the importance of a chiropractor's relationship with their organizations and just some of your feedback there?
[00:38:08] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, certainly I'm an advocate of being part of your chiropractic association in whatever state. I think, like I said, it really boils down to standing up for our profession because either other people are going to tell us what we're good for or we have the opportunity to go in there and tell them what we're good for. Just like you and I were talking about in terms of representing ourselves as professionals and as individuals in those collaborative relationships.
[00:38:34] Speaker D: Right.
[00:38:35] Speaker A: And it's the same thing now on, I guess, the next step up.
[00:38:38] Speaker D: Right.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: In terms of the legislative arena. There's things all the time that go on, people don't even know it, you know, what their chiropractic associations do for them to maintain their ability to practice. And people will tell me a lot of times, well, I don't want to get involved in politics. Well, you're involved whether you like it or not.
[00:38:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: These kind of things could affect you whether you like it or not. And I can understand what they're saying is they don't want to go in and do the things that I do. And they're not comfortable doing the things that I do, which is fine because I'm willing to go in there and do that for people and for our profession. But I wholeheartedly would say getting involved in your association, at a minimum as a member, you know, we have memberships that are as low as, you know, one adjustment a month, you know, type of thing in many cases. And I would guess that most associations do. So it's a minimal commitment. It always boils down to value.
[00:39:31] Speaker D: Right.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: And people keep coming back to, well, what's in it for me or what's important to me.
[00:39:35] Speaker D: Right.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: And many associations have things that are important to people, people, whether it's benefits, services, educational opportunities, and those go without saying. But you're not going to find any other organization typically than your state organization or your national organization that's representing you in that legislative capacity. And I have been in scenarios with legislators, mostly legislative, fundraising, people that have straight up asked me, what's wrong with you chiropractors, Right.
[00:40:05] Speaker C: What do you mean that doesn't happen?
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Like, yeah, exactly. And in that moment, I mean, the whole room went silent. I was in a room full of advocates from Blue Shield, Blue Cross, all of these different unions and things of that nature.
[00:40:17] Speaker C: What did you say?
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Well, I took a deep breath, first of all, because I was like starting to sweat and that kind of thing. But I just reminded myself what we are good for and why I do what I, what I, what I do.
[00:40:30] Speaker D: Right.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: And I started telling them about the chiropractic philosophy and that the body's a self healing entity and that we're trying to give the body an opportunity to heal itself.
[00:40:38] Speaker D: Right.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: And I could feel that whole room soften in that moment.
[00:40:41] Speaker D: Right.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: And by the end of that evening, every legislative advocate in that room from all of the different organizations were coming up to me and telling me their chiropractic story.
So those kind of opinions exist at high levels.
[00:40:54] Speaker D: Right.
[00:40:54] Speaker A: And they will influence legislators in policy making decisions and whether we're included in budgetary or regulatory environments and that type of thing. I mean, in California we're still fighting, you know, to get inclusion into the essential health benefits that President Obama said everybody was entitled to have access to. We're one of only four states still that's trying to, you know, bridge that gap kind of thing. And so there's many other fights that go on nationally and locally. But, you know, I'm a huge advocate of standing up for ourselves because like I said, either we tell People what we're good for. They're going to tell us.
[00:41:32] Speaker C: They're going to tell us. Let's pretend I'm in a state where everything's good, I'm a member of my organization or not, but I'm good. No problems with practice, and everything's great. But then you start hearing about things happening in other states.
So is there a use, case or purpose for me to be in my state's organization and supportive of them when there's things going on in other states that I maybe don't like for chiropractic? Does that make sense?
[00:42:00] Speaker A: Sure. I think, you know, you know, I work with an organ as part of the president of the state association here in California. We work with an organization called Cairo Congress, which is more on a national scale.
[00:42:10] Speaker D: Right.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: And so we have opportunities to work collaboratively with them about things that might be going on in other states. And then just the ability of like one state president to interact with another state president or, or executive director on an issue or a topic that is important, you know, to the associ. To the profession in general.
[00:42:28] Speaker D: Right.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: That gives you the ability to reach out with that level of, I guess, credibility.
[00:42:33] Speaker D: Right.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: Because. Because that's. It comes back to that common language again.
[00:42:36] Speaker D: Right.
[00:42:36] Speaker A: When you talk to legislators and you talk to other state associations, it's hard for an individual to break through in that regard, whereas a state president or a executive director is going to get access to them because they have that common language. And it's the same phenomenon here, you know, in our state or in any state, if you have a concern about something that's happening on a state level, the ability of your state association to reach out to this legislator regarding that issue is much more powerful than one individual doing it.
[00:43:08] Speaker D: Right.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: It's that strength in numbers concept. And so I think I can't speak highly enough about that. You know, I wish more people felt like I do. But as we talked about, I love the chiropractic Kool Aid, and this is something I've dedicated my life to and something that I will, you know, I'll go to my grave defending the importance of chiropractic cares as people's. As part of people's lives.
[00:43:32] Speaker C: Yeah. I guess I'll just say that, you know, if you're cool in your state and everything's hunky dory, that's great. But if you see things going on in other states that maybe you think are not great. So for example, there's a state that just removed clients. Chiropractic from Medicaid coverage in that state, other states that are trying to add medicine and change scopus practice or whatever. So I feel like if there's things going on in other states that someone might not love, but it's not going on in their state, people have a tendency to be like, oh well, that doesn't affect me. But I see those things as the types of things that can spread, like.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: The domino effect it's coming.
[00:44:08] Speaker C: So I think, I think being active to, to be in those advocacy positions, however someone can manage it is fine. If they don't have the time, then just be a member and give your money, I guess.
But it, it'll be coming for you eventually. And I don't want to say it's going to be too late to join like the day before someone's gonna take your license to practice away. But it might be.
[00:44:30] Speaker A: I always remember that saying about the only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing.
[00:44:35] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: It's like the bystander effect. Everybody, it lives in their bubble and they're like, oh, someone else is going.
[00:44:42] Speaker C: To take care of it.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: I'm going to keep running my practice, everything's going to be fine. And you know, my scope of practice won't change because other people are dealing with it for me. So I think you have to get out of that bubble because I operate under the. Be the change that you want to see in the world. And it only takes one person to make a difference. And I've always believed that.
So if you're listening out there and you've been on the fence, get involved to some capacity. You don't have to go. Like Dr. Phil said, you don't have to be up at the podium yelling at legislators unless you want to be, but strengthen numbers. And for Dr. Phil to go up there and yell at those legislators, having that crew behind him can only be helpful.
[00:45:24] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, Dr. Dieter, thank you so much for joining us today.
All these insights have been really helpful just to help everybody see how they can build those relationships professionally that really are needed, not just individually, but I think it helps us as a whole, as a profession. Like all these little individual things that we do for ourselves just reflect positively on all of us. So thanks for all the work that you do there and sharing your wealth of knowledge with all of us today.
[00:45:52] Speaker A: Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And whether you're new in practice or 20 years in, strengthening your connections outside your four walls can elevate your care and your community impact.
[00:46:04] Speaker C: So to our listeners what relationships have made the biggest difference in your practice. Send us your stories, questions, or other topics you'd like to see us cover in Future podcasts to ChiroCastiroTouch.com and if.
[00:46:19] Speaker B: You enjoyed today's conversation, please like, link and subscribe wherever you listen. We've got more in the guests and real world tips coming your way. Thank you for listening.
[00:46:28] Speaker E: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Chirocast Insights for Modern Chiropractors, brought to you by ChiroTouch, hosted by Dr. Stephanie Brown and Danielle Hevenas, produced by Debbie Brooks, editing from Matthew Dodge. Our theme song, House 5 is from Scott W. Brooks. If you enjoyed today's show, don't forget to like, link and subscribe.
We appreciate your support and we'll catch you next time.
